The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh.
You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..

besides, killing farming fleet on site is not about getting their isk, is about getting the kills themself, who cares if i grab their loot or not if i kill their triage and dreads in the process

I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.

My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space.

Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.

Perhaps you might try reading what I was replying to, or even what I wrote way back on page 1 of this thread. I don't think lower class holes need more safety, though I do think they should have to at least work to get safety, just like they used to have to before the discovery scanner.

Also, you are pants-on-head ******** if you think sub-C5 space is a ghost town. I'd say that probably 75% of C2s are occupied, and it is closer to 95% of ones with a static highsec. Sure, C4s are pretty empty, but finding an un-occupied C2 or C1 is pretty rare.

I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.

The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.

The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.

Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.

Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.

So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).

A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:

C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.

Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.

It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.

On of the first things i did when joining a pvp wormhole alliance was to sign up the the probers class.
First we learned how to use d-scan to find someone of the alliance at a planet.
Then we learned how to find a pos.
At that time we were in a c5 with static c3.(no mapping tools existed yet, no corp bookmarks, and no not this alliance i am in now)
After that the alliance rolled the static hole and told me and an other newbie to go and scan the static.
After a few hole we finaly got a hit on sleepers wrecks.
Trying to find the combat site with d-scan was no easy for someone who just found it.
My class mate found them, while i found one of the residents pos. While we both just used d-scan.
This took at least 5-10 minutes .
After this the alliance dictor was warped to the site after the other classmates slowboted to them in his covert ops frig.
We caught some of them, while i was seeing them reship at a pos to counter attack, i relayed the info.
Thanks to the info we brought in some form of support to break their reinforcement fleet.
The prober class was a succes never seen before in the alliance!

I've lived almost exclusively in W space since its introduction and had multiple incarnations over the years.

True story, one of the catalysts for VoC was after Aquila attacked my "Carebear Class" running Anoms in what became Volta's WH. The experience led to a conversation on Aquila's comms and me moving in to Aquila's WH, the group grew in size and a year later VoC was formed.

This encounter would likely have never taken place if we knew they were there and coming, and the impromptu "OH ****!!!" nature of the encounter and subsequent escalations was tremendously enjoyable and one of the most significant events in my time playing Eve.

I'm all for more encounters between players and support the proposed change.

I know, but the point was the with the current instant spawn of the sigs in overview and probe scanner view without probing you don't have any people in eve so lazy/stupid any more.
They are gone extinct and so is a lot of player interaction.